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Are Black People Responsible for Black Men Livin' on the Down Low? (2482 hits)

I read a post in another blog that suggested that black people's homophobia is what keeps black brothers from so-called 'coming out of the closet'. ...that it's homophobia that's causing black men to live double lives.

What do you all think about this? In your answer, please, also address the following:

1. What IS (your definition of) homophobia? (Is just believing it's wrong homophobic, in your opinion?)

2. Do you think that black men who choose to live double lives do so out of fear or out of a selfish need to live the best of both worlds with little or no accountability?

3. If we ARE responsible for HIS double life, are we also responsible for the children created in some of these unknowingly one-sided covenants (marriage)...are we also responsible for the diseases we get as a result of his double life?

4. Even if we to the man, does he have the right to not disclose his s*xual preference? We're putting our lives at risk every time we have unprotected s*x (among other things), but does he have the right to NOT disclose that he also has s*x with men (unprotected or othewise)?

5. Would society consider a man who has intercourse with women and men gay? Or would he be considered "bis*xual"?

You don't have to answer all of those questions, but please, touch on one or two. I'm really interested in hearing what people have to say.

I ask partly because I dated a down low brother in my twenties. Of course, I didn't know this about him until about age 30, long after our relationship was over. And when I found out, I was upset. Around this time, I also had a male gay roommate. (No, my roommate was not his down low partner because my roommate was quite openly gay and didn't like down low brothers...didn't respect them). Where I was living, the gay community was very well supported and seemed celebrated...like being gay was the new black or something.

So was he down low because he was scared to come out or because he's 'bis*xual'? Or maybe he was one of those brothers who throws caution to the wind and has a false sense of security that AIDS won't happen to him? (We had protected s*x...no glove...no love...and keep in mind I was in what I believed to be a monogamous relationship in my early twenties AND IF I KNEW, I COULD NEVER HAVE BEEN IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM. We could have been FRIENDS, but certainly not a couple).

Ok...drum roll please...

SOUND OFF...

Posted By: Dee Gray
Friday, August 22nd 2008 at 7:56PM
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My definition of Homophobia is having the fear of one of the same s*x.
Black men who chose to live this lifestyle, knows that it is not an acceptable lifestyle therefore they do not want anyone to know what they consider to be okay and there is no doubt no accountability due on their part. This is not only a selfish attitude but one of demonic proportions.
I read the book "On the Down Low" and it told how the choices of these men effect families, friends and churches. For the s*xual partners they chose men and boys in churches, bus stop and word of mouth, they even have their own code when they address each other. As far as unprotected s*x: We are put ourselves at risk when nothing is use, no matter what type of relationship you are in. The most important of this subject is honesty. These men are not honest with the people they are with, and they are not honest with themselves. There is no one to blame but the ones who chose to do this, and there is no excuse for their choices.
If they find that this is something so natural then why not be open about it, why hide? I would want to be told the s*xual preference from a man, that way it would give me a choice if that is what I really want to get into.
As far as what society considers gay or bis*xual; they have put so many criterias on what is considered being gay or bis*xual it's not funny. Its all gay to me, and it is a sin and I say this because, what information I had gathered thus far on the subject, that most of these men are in church around the country therefore, they know that it is wrong, because it is not of God.
We used to say that the black community is killing itself because of gang violence, but what about the real reason: ignorance.
Saturday, August 23rd 2008 at 12:09PM
Cheryl Hendrix

Thanks for chiming in MJ. I agree with your definition of a homophobic. Believing it's wrong doesn't give anyone the right (and it's not right) to try and damn anybody. You always know my take on homos*xuality, so I don't need to go into it. You also know that I am a huge advocate for hating sin, not those WHO sin. Plus, we all know that homos*xuals don't have the market cornered there.

I was wondering about down low aspect of it because of the people who get hurt as a result of a man's actions. ...because of how much actual damage...lasting damage that reaches those who didn't do anything wrong.

So yeah, I get what you're saying. I will say that we're a FAR CRY from homos*xuality being "taboo". These days, it's ANYTHING but taboo. Heck, from some of the stuff I've witnessed in the past decade, it's become "cool" to be gay.

And I'm still scratchin' my head. LOL.
Saturday, August 23rd 2008 at 10:20PM
Dee Gray

Please do not hide behind the church when spewing hatred. God created gay, straignt, bi, tran. He even created you.
Saturday, August 23rd 2008 at 11:34PM
Mack W Jackson

Well Dee, I guess it depends on the part of the country that you live in. My guess is that it is less tolerated in the South than in other places. There are pockets of intolerance and tolerance all over the world but in general there are some places that are more accepting than others. I do think that true homophobics are lumped in with people who simply do not agree with homos*xuality. At points in history homos*xuality was met with the utmost scorn, hatred and even violence. (That's where someone got the bright idea to equate the gay struggle with the black struggle.) But now it has become politically incorrect to be anti-gay and becoming moreso each day. There are still bastions of idiocy that would attack, harm, even kill a person based on their s*xual orientation. It happened not too long ago at the high school in my town. People need to learn to disagree without resorting to mindless, unprovoked violence. As far as the homos*xuality, that's between the gay person and God. Those on the down low are denying who they really are and what they are doing. No matter if they are gay or bis*xual if they are having a s*xual relationship outside of their marriage then they are not only gay they are adulterers.

Side note: If homos*xuality is a genetic thing, you are either homo or hetero, then how does one explain bis*xuals?
Saturday, August 23rd 2008 at 11:35PM
Tony Boyd

I think that homophobia is when someone acts on their oppinions of a homos*xual's preference.

I think that each situation is unique and sometimes it's a combination of fear and selfishness.
We are not responsible for a choice that a man makes to hide his lifestyle. All of the consequences come from him and actions.
I personally think that they should disclose that information, but thats just my oppinion and a person that hides their lifestyle will have 10 reasons not to disclose the information for each 1 that I can think of.
Sunday, August 24th 2008 at 8:32AM
Emmanuel Brown

Mack, where do you see HATRED in this blog? Please, come with something that provokes thought and dialogue or don't come, please. It's a waste of time to have you infer or interject something that's not there.

Blessings...
Sunday, August 24th 2008 at 12:48PM
Dee Gray

Tony, I agree with you 100%. There are still people out there who can't separate their disagreeableness about homos*xual from the PERSON. And I don't think that's homophobia-- I think that's just hatred pure and simple, especially when violence and verbal abuse and ridicule rear their ugly heads. Phobia is fear. I think men who don't even want to shake hands with a gay man because they think that every gay man wants every MAN on the planet is homophobic. They can't form a correlation that just like every WOMAN doesn't want them, neither does every man. That's just one example.

And, I, too, have asked the question about so-called bis*xuality. I mentioned this in another blog, too. Next, people will be saying they were BORN bis*xual...and after awhile, the world will believe that, too. This is my take: if you're a man who sleeps with other men, even IF you ALSO sleep with women, you're gay. If you're a woman who sleeps with other women, even if you ALSO sleep with men, you're gay. This bis*xual thing makes me scratch my head. If you were BORN to be with men, why also be with women? And vice-versa.

I'm probably not going to be at all popular for this next statement, but I'm always astounded by the 'born that way' assertion. All I've ever said to that is if one was born that way, being 'born AGAIN' is certainly a good start.

Tony, again, thanks. Your thinking makes me think.

Blessings...
Sunday, August 24th 2008 at 1:06PM
Dee Gray

Kari, no ma'am. That was a decade ago. We haven't been in touch and I didn't find out until long after the fact.

I asked people what they think to open up dialogue, but I'm certain that he believes homos*xuality is wrong. I should've known when he felt TOTALLY comfortable stripping down to his pink underwear in front of my gay roommate!!! LOL We were long over by the time that happened and were friends because I ended the relationship due to "baby mama drama". So, again, by the time he disrobed and got his groove on in his underwear while my gay roommate looked on, we were not together. I thought, "This man is really secure...and he's a 'metros*xual'...he ain't even fadin' the pink bikinis!" Both me and my roommate were so stunned, there was silence for a long moment. I have always prided myself on not standing in judgment of people and freakin' out when soomething makes me uncomforable, so I didn't make a big deal about it. My roommate DID make a couple of comments that suggested he MUST 'go both ways'. (Ya know, the 'gaydar' thing). HE didn't even think it was normal. We didn't discuss it a lot though. ...just kinda laughed it off, had dinner and moved on.

No, I haven't had a chance to ask because I haven't seen him. It was brought to my attention years later by someone who used to work in IT at our job. That person had access to every email or IM conversation everyone had ever had and out of curiousity, got all up in everybody's business. He was wrong, yes, and I told him so, but he disclosed the gentleman the guy was seeing at the time-- and it made perfect sense to me then because I KNEW the guy he referred to was down low. Although for me, he didn't seem all that down low with the way he used to openly flirt with men and then make a joke of it. So I think he was just down low to his wife. I didn't know her and had never met her though I wondered how she didn't notice...or if she noticed and charged his blatent femininity to just being raised by a bunch of women.

Anyway, for me, it doesn't really even matter all that much why he chose not to disclose because no matter his reason, he had no right not to. It was not HIS right to choose for ME whether or not I would be with a man who was sleeping with MEN. That was MY choice to make, so why he left that out doesn't matter. There's no reason in the world he could give me to soften the blow because he could've given me more than baby. There are worse things. Yes, we had protected s*x, but the c*ndom isn't 100%. The fact that we were not in an exclusive relationship is where my problems lies...and the fact that he cheated on me with a man just makes it that much worse. And to this day, I don't HATE the man...I just hate what he DID. We were really good friends before we even started a relationship so it really baffles me that he didn't disclose it. He was obviously struggling, but it doesn't change the fact that he had no right to include me in that intimate part of that struggle because again, that wasn't HIS decision to make.

I'm not holding on to this by any means. My life has long moved on. It was just brought back for a sec when I read a post in another blog that suggested that everybody BUT DOWN LOW BROTHAS are responsible for them living on the down low EXCEPT THE BROTHAS THEMSELVES. That got me thinking.

Anyway, Kari, thanks so much for posting. ;-)

Blessings...

Sunday, August 24th 2008 at 1:12PM
Dee Gray

My definition of homophobia: ignorant minds that allow the embellishment of fear from other's 2 determine their thought process.

I feel there is no reason why anyone should be homophobic. My thing is, if it really repulses you 2 think about 2 gay people, then you need 2 dig deep and find the underlying truth of why you feel the way you feel. You just can't go around treating human beings horribly because of your beliefs....it just isn't right. It also isn't right 2 pass judgement on other's 'cause at the end of the day only GOD can judge you and NO 1 ELSE! Homos*xuality has been ever present 4 over 600 years, this isn't anything new and the struggle 4 gay equality has existed 4 as long as I can remember.

However I do think that black people put negative vibes out towards black gay and lesbians. Especially the black church. Supposedly being gay is a white issue...not a black issue. But gay is an issue 4 every race, not just white. Black people need 2 tolerate and embrace the differences in this world, because if not we are doomed 2 be non-existent.

Black men need 2 protect themselves if they're going 2 dip out on their women, because right now, black women have the highest percentage of HIV/AIDS and that is absolutely RIDICULOUS! Be a man and come correct or don't mess with a female at all. I think black men dip on the low not because their selfish, but out of fear. 'Cause think about it, if a brother knew he would be excepted easily he would just go 4 what he likes, and not be something he's not just 2 make other people comfortable.

And if a man has s*x with both a woman and man, I label him bi-s*xual.

Great post! I think we need 2 have more discussions on s*xual orientation just as much as we need 2 talk more about racism in America. It's the only way 2 reach a common ground. Since we all live in the same country, we need 2 learn how 2 stop fighting each other and use that energy 2 fight the real enemies.
Sunday, August 24th 2008 at 2:56PM
L A

L A, I hear you. I kinda disagree about the black church though. I mean look at Bobby Jones. He's had his own gospel show since I was a child. And then there's James Cleveland and quite a few others.

I know more gay black church ministers of music and choir directors than I know just plain out gay people. The murdered choir director at Obama's home church (former church) in Chicago was openly gay and served in that capacity for at least 20 years under Jeremiah Wright. After 20 years, one would hardly think he was unwelcomed.

And like I said, I personally know quite a few, so I don't think the black church is all THAT down on homos*xuals, especially gay musically gifted males.

Sunday, August 24th 2008 at 6:43PM
Dee Gray

L A, I'm also not sure that because homos*xuality has supposedly been around for over 600 years somehow makes it acceptable. I'm scratchin' my head on that one. Murder has been around even longer. At what point should that not be a sin?

Anyway, just food for thought. Thanks for posting.

Blessings...
Monday, August 25th 2008 at 1:59AM
Dee Gray

ok im late in the conversation but anyways im here. I think black men do not choose to live the double life. I believe they really want to open and honest about their s*xuality, but are afraid. I think they're afraid of the way people will react. Black people are church going people and in church we are taught homos*xuality is an abomination, period. Also, the fear of being called names like fag, sissy, punk,etc. They're afraid of losing friends and family, not being accepted. So they stay "in the closet." If you were to put yourself in their shoes, how easy would it be for you to come out? What if it were your child, how would you react? Also, sometimes people lose their jobs when they come out of the closet, and everyone turns their back on them. I'm not saying its right, but this why there are down-low men.
If a man loves women and men society would label him as a bi-s*xual. However, gay is gay there is no in between, in my opinion.
Also, we have to remember that facts show that those diseases, (mainly AIDS) are contracted more by heteros*xuals than homos*xuals. Especially in the black community.
Monday, August 25th 2008 at 1:03PM
chivonne lawson

A homophobic person is someone who fears homos*xuals to the point where they will disassociate from anything they/others might consider to be non-hetero and lash out in a hurtful/hateful way towards anything/anyone they consider to be homos*xual.

I feel that there should be some responsibility laid on the shoulders of society/the black community. It is well known in the black community that if a guy/male is gay then he is not a "man." That is the overall mentality that is held and enforced in the black community. So, it is understandable that some black men would hide that part of themselves by leading a double life. Does, that negate the responsibility from the man and/or men who choose to live this double life; not at all. But it does help to explain why some might feel the need to make the choose.

Automately the majority of the responsibility lies with the "down-low men." "Down-low men" are making the easiest choose for them. Instead of facing society as who they feel they truly are, they hide it, thus putting their lives and the lives of the women they also have intercourse with in danger. They show total disregard and disrespect for not only the women but the other gay men. They are cowards who would rather take the easy way out then fight for who they feel they are.

A man who has s*x with both men and women are not bis*xual. More than likely if they are having s*x with both, it is only known that they are having s*x with women. They are cowards, not bis*xuals.

It easy to say they are scared. Well, I'm sure every homos*xual person that came out was scared at some point. That is no excuse for the behavior of "down-low men." They make the decision to live the double life because it's easier for them. It's extremely selfish and cowardice. Their double life affects not only them. If they were the only ones to bare the consequences then we would not be discussing it. But the truth of the matter is "down-low men's" lifestyle is affecting the black community in a negative way. So, sorry, being scared is not going to fly.
Monday, August 25th 2008 at 8:34PM
Ebone Evans

Dr. West, THANK YOU. A friend and I were having a conversation awhile ago when our pastor (I think it was our pastor) said we've got to learn to love the hell out people. It was great and it's good to hear that again. LOL.

Anyway, there's not much for me to say to your post except that I agree and I think you hit all the nails right on the head. So, again, THANK YOU for getting in on this conversation. Keep planting seeds and educating. Keep making us THINK. And keep giving it the real way even if it leaves a ad taste in some mouths.

Blessings....
Sunday, August 31st 2008 at 11:07PM
Dee Gray

Eveyone has there own opinion, but what I said about the black church is what I've been told by gay men who were once downlow. Then you said something about musically inclined gay men being accepted in church. What if he isn't musically inclined? As far as AIDS/HIV, I had a show with Phillip Hilton, Sr VP of National Black Leadership Commision on AIDS, from what I learned from him is the majority of people who have AIDS get it from unprotected s*x, needles, and blood transfusions. Really black people have the leading cause of every std. Like I said, what I learned is from actually talking to gay people and they do have consciences. Just like you they found it hard to tell people it affected, eventually they did. Some people don't care, but not having a conscience isn't a gay thing.
Sunday, August 31st 2008 at 11:32PM
chivonne lawson

I don't know about the non-musically inclined gay male in church. It's been my experience that it's an oxymoron-- like gay 'marriage'. I can honestly say that every gay male I've known (and I mean openly gay males) in church has been musically inclined-- either plays instruments or sings his face off. I've never met an openly gay male in church who was not musically inclined. (I'm sure they exist. I just honestly haven't met one). And I'm talking about in churches I've been at over the years, not all black churches because obviously, I haven't been in every black church in America.
Sunday, August 31st 2008 at 11:40PM
Dee Gray

So a man who isn't muscically inclined would probably have to keep his homos*xuality to h imself. If that's the case that's a double-standard.
Sunday, August 31st 2008 at 11:43PM
chivonne lawson

Che, you have a point. As a person who doesn't agree with homes*xuality PERIOD, it doesn't matter to me whether or not there's a double standard. I'm a woman and I live in a world where double standards exist that I just have to deal with. You know what I mean because you're a woman, too.

All I'm saying is that there IS some acceptance in the black church of homos*xual men especially. And I also did not say nor suggest that a man who is not musically inclined would probably have to keep his homos*xuality to himself. What I said is that I (personally) do not know any homos*xual males IN the church who are NOT musically gifted in some way. That could either mean that the ones that are not musically gifted are choosing not to be open or just don't go to church. It doesn't HAVE to mean that they CAN'T come out. You could be right...as could I.

Either way, there is no reason in this world for a grown man to choose to not only put his life in jeopardy but to also choose to put the lives of others at risk with his behavior.

Blessings...
Monday, September 1st 2008 at 7:05PM
Dee Gray

Ernest, no it's not just the black man. I'm intelligent as are the people who have already responded. I posed the question because of a SPECIFIC assertion that BLACK MEN would be able to come out if BLACK PEOPLE would accept them. I read a SPECIFIC comment saying that BLACK PEOPLE are responsible for BLACK MEN living on the down low. So, no, black men are not the only down low men out there. "In the closet" or "down low'...really...what's the difference? It's semantics and it doesn't change the meaning. when it doesn't change the meaning, it doesn't matter IMHO.
Thursday, September 4th 2008 at 1:22PM
Dee Gray

Ernest, if you lie and I call you on it but still treat you (and consder you a friend), am I phobic? (I know I'm not. It was a rhetorical question).

You CAN disagree with someone's lifestyle and still love them. I do it every day. I can't speak for other people and homophobia IS real, but it doesn't pertain to everyone who disagrees with homos*xuality. Disagreeing with a thing doesn't make you afraid of it.

However, thanks for your point of view. What I didn't get from your point of view is whether or not it's OKAY to live on the down low and put the life of the heteros*xual woman who thinks it's "just the two of you" in danger? Is THAT okay?
Thursday, September 4th 2008 at 1:27PM
Dee Gray

Well to answer the original quesion someone who is "homophobic" is simply a person who fears homos*xuals. That homophobia can manifest itself in many ways just like fear of black people has manifested itself in many ways. I think alot of people trend with the thought of blaming the "dl" brother for not disclosing who he's having s*x with but what about the responsibility of the other partner be it a man or a woman? Don't both people have a responsibility to have "safe s*x"? If a woman allows a man to have unprotected s*x with her she is just as liable as he is. Now u may argue in the case of a married woman who thinks she is in a monogamous relationship. In that case yes I would blame the cheating husband. In the case of casual relations which is how I believe most of these heteros*xual women are becoming infected with diseases up to and including HIV, I believe that both people should be held accountable for acting irresponsibly. I think people always want someone to blame for an end result. This "dl" thing is not new. Men have been hiding their homos*xuality since the beginning whenever that was, probably since the beginning of sin. I don't believe most of these "dl" dudes are dl because they believe they are doing anything wrong. I think it's because of their perceived reality of what would happen to them if people knew they liked the same s*x. The problem lies within us and how we treat people. We are all entitled to our beliefs but how we treat people is what matters. It is not up to us to judge anyone, we can try to guide, educate etc etc but everyone should be treated they way you expect to be treated in return.

Question#4
4. Even if we to the man, does he have the right to not disclose his s*xual preference? We're putting our lives at risk every time we have unprotected s*x (among other things), but does he have the right to NOT disclose that he also has s*x with men (unprotected or othewise)?

My answer to that would be to ask do women ask men are they having s*x with ANYONE else besides them, not just men? When 2 parties decide to have s*x should they sit down first and have a discussion about the others they may be having s*x with? This goes to my point about people wanting to lay blame. Before anyone judges these "dl" brothers they should first be certain that they are living responsible s*x lives. They should ask themselves the same questions. 1)Should I tell this person who I've had s*x with or who I'm currently having s*x with? 2)Are we planning on having protected s*x? 3)Have u been tested for any diseases including HIV?
These are red zone questions that make people feel uncomfortable so therefore they don't get asked.

Oh and to go back to the title of this blog. No black people are not responsible for men living on the down low! The whole down low phrase is something that came out of black society...it used to be called living in the closet. Again men who have s*x with men and women who have s*x with women has been a hidden behavior since the beginning. It's only getting national attention now because of the AIDS crisis as well as our society now being more comfortable speaking openly about things that were taboo to discuss 40-50years ago. It's foolish to think this "dl" phenomena is new! I laugh at these shows and books and discussions about "dl" men all the time.

Irresponsible s*xual behavior is just as wrong as judging the person who is doing it. Instead we need to focus on s*xual education for adults as well as youth. People need to be educated about the spread of HIV and other diseases. People need to learn how to have healthy conversations with their partners and loved ones and friends regarding s*x.....PERIOD!!
Sunday, September 7th 2008 at 7:18PM
Roland Jenkins

Roland...all true. We agree. Absolutely. So does that mean a man should disclose that he's also sleeping with other men to the woman he's in a relationship with? Or should he only disclose it when ASKED?

Oh, and I think this education thing is somewhat overrated. We all know how babies are made and for the most part, AIDS is out there. I believe most folk are educated but believe "that can't happen to ME".

And yes, people need to start having those healthy conversations about s*x, but that's not really what this blog is about, is it? The specific question (among others) is should a man who, for all intents and purposes, gives the illusion that he's living a monogamous, heteros*xual lifestyle with his WOMAN disclose to that woman that he is also sleeping with men? (Yes or No please).
Thursday, September 25th 2008 at 7:07PM
Dee Gray