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The stigma of slavery (431 hits)

The genesis of this post comes from extended conversations with one of my friends here, who used these words in one of his recent replies to me. It got me thinking in terms beyond racism.

As a White American, I cannot feel this, as I am not a Black American descended from slaves. But it makes me wonder if this is at the root of my friend's proposed only permanent solution.

I have also been listening to the words of KRS-One,a Black American, who points out that Barack Obama is not a Black American, but African American, and bi-racial.

So, I am asking for your opinions on whether this stigma of slavery is a different issue from racism. How does it affect the black community, if in fact it does? Many seem not to be affected by it, while others may be.

Posted By: Steve Williams
Sunday, September 6th 2009 at 2:34PM
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Yes brother, your words have calmed me, the Van Jones deal had me unsettled. You have seen the Patriot? Blockbuster. Idealism is cheap, worth millions in the box office. But at some point it costs. Where is that point? I am sure you understand.
Sunday, September 6th 2009 at 10:07PM
Steve Williams

Hmm, I fear I may still be misunderstood. By that she meant she did not need anyone's approval but her own.
Sunday, September 6th 2009 at 10:16PM
Steve Williams

Hi Steve, I could write a 30 page or more paper on this, instead I'll put it to you this way. 1. Yes the stigma is totally different than racism, but it was methods of racism that were to create and continue to breathe life into the stigma ,mainly in all forms of the media. If some ( I say some because there are those of white america that understand the damage that has and continues to be done) of white america were to totally accept that slavery, the lasting effects of slavery that were created through policies, laws and creating stereotypes by using certain imagery and limited selection of the types of news reporting, just to name a few. Then it would go against everything that many where taught to believe about people of color in this country. Institutionalized slavery replaced chattel slavery. If a caucasian person commits a crime, that person only represents him/her self, but if a person of color does the same, it is received as if all people of color are criminals. When Michael Jordon became the phenomenal basketball star he was, he was viewed as an exception, a one of a kind. When in fact he is apart of the rule and Lebron James, Kobe Bryant and many others are proof of that.

Of course there are many that don't like hip hop music (I'm talking KRS1, Public Enemy and many others from that era) rap is not music, it is what they do and too many people are confused about that and attempt to make it one of the same, but it is not.

I have read many of other blogs that continue to make a reference to people of color being inferior because of slavery and the multitude of things done by white america. It always prompts me to ask: How superior is anyone or group of people, if the only way they can deem themselves as superior was by doing things to bring other people down to their lowest point?

I could go on, but I will leave it at that.
Sunday, September 6th 2009 at 10:42PM
Marquerite Burgess

Marquerite, would you say then that the stigma is internal and racism is external, while racism enforces the stigma? I feel somewhat ashamed to ask this as one of the race that created this situation, even though it was my forebears not me, just as present blacks forebears were slaves not you.

More important, can the stigma be overcome regardless of racism?
Sunday, September 6th 2009 at 11:18PM
Steve Williams

Sister Irma, I will now accept that Harry is the only one that has this stigma of slavery and that I cannot help him, much as I wanted to.
Monday, September 7th 2009 at 12:43AM
Steve Williams

Brother, I guess I am not your average white guy. Let me go WAY out on the limb here. No disrespect to my president. Who would get my vote? (No I did not vote for Obama, my candidate was not on the ballot.)

My ideal candidate would be neither Democrat nor Republican, nor male. She would be the epitome of a Strong, Black (and I do mean BLACK, as black can be) woman, She would stand alone against all political forces, and not take ANY bull****. She would uphold the Constitution of the United States, and not BEND OVER for ANYONE. She would work tirelessly for life liberty and the pursuit of happiness (Oh, and ABSOLUTE equality) for ALL citizens of this great country, against ALL comers. She would show the real meaning of BACKBONE! Can you imagine such a thing? Just call me a dreamer.
Monday, September 7th 2009 at 3:41AM
Steve Williams

I think I went too far out on that limb. I will desist.
Monday, September 7th 2009 at 10:44AM
Steve Williams

I am here to learn and share. If I become contentious it's all bad.
Monday, September 7th 2009 at 10:55AM
Steve Williams

Hello Steve,

I will begin by quoting you Steve. You said, “Sister Irma, I will now accept that Harry is the only one that has this stigma of slavery and that I cannot help him, much as I wanted to.”

What was it Steve that you offered me that you thought could help me? All your ideas that you presented to me to change my mind about the concept of sovereignty I knock down as senseless. Finally, you said that you were joking.

You mentioned the stupid idea of going to Nevada. Be convince Steve that Black America’s only permanent solution ever to be real people is our sovereignty on a portion of this continent that we could call our very own country with borders. In other words, I do not want White America in the lives of Black Americans any more. Everything I say is going to happen for Black Americans as everything that Moses said for the Hebrew people happened.

What Black Americans need is the experience of governing themselves. The ability of a people to govern themselves with a single government as what White America or France has simultaneously civilizes that people as well. Civilizing is a constant on going process that at almost any time could fall apart. It is a unique thing that 41 million Black American people who are descendents of slaves would move in one direction for the benefit of all to achieve Life, Liberty, Happiness and Prosperity for themselves without the influence of outsiders.

White Americans cannot give Black Americans these intangible values and Black Americans do not understand that yet. Only God and the prophet could instill theses values in us. As tough as Black Americans speak and believe that they are so intelligent, they subliminally depends on White America for all their substances.

Lastly, what you should have said to Irma is this. “I, Steve will now accept that Harry is the only one that has the stigma of SOVEREIGNTY and that I, Steve am sort of cocky to think I could help Harry. It is obvious God anoints Harry as Moses was for his people because nothing is greater for Black Americans than for them to become a sovereign people, as no solution was greater for the Hebrew people than the Exodus. Steve do you see my point yet?

In other words, Steve, in order for you to help me you must show that it is not the destiny of White America to lead Black Americans around forever and that Black Americans should have their own. I want to bring a stop to White America’s subjugation, racism and suppression of Black Americans. Moses brought a stop of the Egyptian people subjugation, racism and oppression of the Hebrew people by the Exodus, am I right.

Black Americans are so blind, deaf and dumbfounded that they do not understand yet the divine good that I am to them. The Black BIA members would hardly admit that having their hands on the wheel of their own destiny is a good thing. When I e-mail those with advance educational degrees they avoids me and they are in the forefront as our leaders, which is pitiful.

Tell me what you think.

What say you?

Monday, September 7th 2009 at 1:01PM
Harry Watley

Thank you Mozell, I understand what you are saying.
Monday, September 7th 2009 at 3:10PM
Steve Williams

Hello Harry,

I can't say what you would wish me to say, nor think of any other thing to say at the moment. If you ever want to talk about anything other than sovereignty, I will be listening.
Monday, September 7th 2009 at 3:21PM
Steve Williams

Hello Steve,

You said this, “If you ever want to talk about anything other than sovereignty, I will be listening.”

I could understand your arrogance. Look at it this way as well Steve, you are wearing shoes and I am not. I am spending my time to fix being shoeless and you want me to forgive about how my feet hurting when I am walking barefoot to pick cotton.

Imagine that you want me to forget about my people’s sovereignty, which is the same thing that the BIA members want as well. Now, to make any sense out it, I would have to say that since you are a White person it would be arrogance on your part. However, on the part of the Blacks I would have to say it shows the stigma of slavery. They do not want anything good for themselves. The slave mentally is still deeply embedded in the Blacks since they want the same thing for themselves as you want for them as well. Blacks loves White people because White people gives them nothing.

You clearly do not want sovereignty for Black Americans, yet look at how they support you against me. How could any average intelligent person outside the boundaries of White America not say that my people are some ignorant people? As Mr. Mozell said, let us call a spade what it is. A spade is a spade.

Your arrogance is the same arrogance the old slave master expressed towards the slaves. Consequentially, I am right that Black Americans only permanent solution is our sovereignty or complete independence from White American. I could see that you do not think Black Americans would ever be free from White American. However, we will, since our time have come with my anointing.

Tell me what you think.

What say you?

Monday, September 7th 2009 at 5:38PM
Harry Watley

You are wrong Harry, I am not being arrogant. Did you know that the origin of the word stigma is that it was a tattoo to identify a criminal or a slave? I do not see any of your people with such a mark. You are a free man Harry, have only to realize it.

Your sovereignty approach is not practical, whereas there are positive things that can be done to address injustice in the real world, and I am doing something, but have not talked about it much. But I will let you know when I have had some success.
Monday, September 7th 2009 at 6:06PM
Steve Williams

Thanks Clark, a lot of the discussion here has focused on that distinction you point out, the individual vs. group. I seem to have botched my own attempt at what you have succinctly put forth.
Monday, September 7th 2009 at 6:51PM
Steve Williams

Mr. Maxwell,

Let me apply rhyme and reason to some of these faulty assumptions that you have Mr. Maxwell.
Yes, we are removed from physical slavery since 1865. However, the leftovers of slavery continued on, especially in the twisted minds of Black Americans today. The fact that you and Irma would play down Black Americans slavery to say other people were in slavery as well, so what is the big deal, is indicative of you twisted mind.

Black Americans today are mentally and psychologically still slavery. The impact slavery altered our ancestors normality has been past down to us. To a trained psychologist eye, the mental destruction of slavery to Black Americans is evident anywhere you go that Black Americans are.

We are the only race that have been on the bottom and have always been on the bottom. We are the only race to have experience slavery in White American. All other races could come into this country and surpass Black Americans. All other races were invited here and Black Americans were not.

Black Americans have the highest incarceration rate. Black Americans have the lowest level in education. Black Americans have the worst healthcare.

Something is mentally wrong with you, Mr. Maxwell for you to say this nonsense, “Such people are struggling with personal mental/emotional afflictions that have more to do with them as an individual and less to do with black people as a group.”

I, Harry am not struggling with any personal, mental or emotional affliction that my people’s afflictions are tried to the residue of slavery as an entire race of people.

Black Americans situation and circumstances mirrors the bible story of the Hebrew people and Moses.

I have tired our uncivilized behavior and all of our shortcomings to slavery. Black Americans are a people that White Americans have made, and you know that I am right. I am firmly convinced that our sovereignty on a portion of this continent that we could call our very own country with borders to pursue Life, Liberty, Happiness and Prosperity in our only permanent solution. As sure as I have typed this post, our sovereignty is going to happen.

Black Americans must be removed from the environment that have cause our affliction for healing to begin and that is why sovereignty is our only permanent solution.

Tell me what you think.

What say you?

Monday, September 7th 2009 at 8:52PM
Harry Watley

Hello Steve,

So, you are saying that it is not practical for Black Americans to be sovereign free in your opinion. What is practical for Black Americans is to remain the property of White American people and work on positive things that could address injustice and subjugation of my people. You are completely our or your mind.

Black Americans have been working to address injustice since slavery. What do you think that the NAACP purpose is? However, today is different. Black Americans’ time have come to be sovereign free since God have anointed me.

You must be out of your mind; I just have to repeat that. You are not talking to Irma, Clarke and some of those other Blacks who do not know which way is up.

We Black Americans came from the Africans your forefathers bought with real English money from the slave traders. Then your forefathers bred themselves with the African slave women to make Black Americans who today are descendents of slaves.

I said all that to say when White Americans made Black American people, we belong to White American people back then in slavery time as we still do today. Therefore, since you feel our sovereign freedom is not practical then you are saying that Black Americans will always be the property of White American people, am I right.

That is not going to be so, because today Black Americans are the Apple of God’s Eye.

Well again, you are out of your dam mind to believe that Black Americans sovereign freedom is not practical. Black Americans are going to become a sovereign people on a portion of this continent that we could call our very own country with borders to pursue Life, Liberty, Happiness and Prosperity in our own with out the influence of outsiders.

Everything that I say is going to happen.

What say you?

Tuesday, September 8th 2009 at 2:04AM
Harry Watley

Hello Harry,

I will use another business analogy, that of the "business plan". Now please don't just go and tell me this is not about business. Take a moment and think of what you are saying as if you were creating a business, There are many similarities between creating a business and creating a sovereign country.

Now in business, you start with an idea, but that by itself will not get you anywhere. You must next proceed to a business plan.

So your idea, as I understand it, is to displace all the non Black Americans in the region from South Carolina north to Canada, and from the Mississippi to the Atlantic. Next, you will bring the remainder of the 40 million Black Americans into this region. Correct me if I am wrong this is your idea.

So let's say we need a "Sovereign Country Plan" how this will be achieved. This plan will need to be much more extensive than the few words you have written on this site. I would imagine it would be quite a lengthy document in fact. And yes it does need to be a document, something that can be reviewed by all 300 millions of these United States of America. Have you started this document?
Tuesday, September 8th 2009 at 9:56AM
Steve Williams

Hello Steve,

Steve, what God gave me is what God gave. What God gave to Moses is what God gave to Moses. There are many simularities, so could you see a business plan that Moses had? If you could see a business plan that Moses had I will request my business plan from God and present it to you for review, how is that?

What say you?
Tuesday, September 8th 2009 at 1:59PM
Harry Watley

Hello Harry,

Moses is your fallback position for anything you do not want to discuss rationally. Are you a time traveler then, that you know so much about what was between Moses and God? You were at the burning bush then and on the mount, side by side with him perhaps?
Tuesday, September 8th 2009 at 2:57PM
Steve Williams

Hello Mr. Maxwell,

I will address each point that you raised.

1- “Harry, what is twisted is your inability to consider and discuss rationally anything beyond the stereotypical myths upon which your entire self-hating premise rests.”
QNS. How it is I am advocating sovereignty for Black Americans and the precious ideal of sovereignty that nations fought about you attribute it to self-hate? How do you connect sovereignty to self-hating? One is negative while the other is positive. Your thinking is irrational, Mr. Maxwell. Now, when I say that your thinking is irrational the next you would say is that I am insulting you.

2- “Your insanity is evident in your oft-repeated assertion that is something is "wrong" with all black Americans except you,”
QNS. Well, let us compare and contrast the story of Moses since there are extraordinary similarities. Since we have hindsight, to an average intelligent person they would say that something was mentally wrong with the Hebrew people to have taken them over twenty years to accept their Exodus or sovereignty out of Egypt, would you agree with me. Now of course, Moses was the only Hebrew that nothing was wrong with since Moses was telling his people what they needed to have, that eventually they caught on after twenty years. Consequentially, I am sane and you should have enough common sense to see that I am sand by judging the present based on what you know from the past to understand that I have the right solution. President Kennedy said in his inaugural address in 1960 that knowledge of the past prepares one for the crisis of the present and the challenges of the future. Do you see my point, Mr. Maxwell?

3- “Now, I told you before, if you want to have a rational conversation with me, or anyone for that matter on what you are trying to accomplish, the first thing you need to do is dispense with the insults. All that does is expose your own insecurities and deep-seated issues with self. We see that. And if you are who you think you are you’d realize by now that is not how a true leader wins people over to their cause.”
QNS. This may be your best point. However, I do not insult people, especially my own. I believe that because of how sharp I am with my rationale you perhaps feel hurt. You must realize that if I do not push back hard, you all will run all over me. We are playing hardball, and I know that you all want to sink me. But, remember I love you all and want to see us a sovereign people.
4- “And besides, did God tell you it’s just us ignorant heathens on BIA that need to be convinced?’
QNS. Of course not, I go to the Muslims and to bible study. I engage others on two different websites. However, I have put out of one of Mr. Farrakhan study group. I have been put out of a church. I have been drop from the NOI website as well as a few other sites. I never broke any of their rules or insulted or name-calling. Things are always fine in the beginning until they could not keep up with my rationale and they would get angry as some BIA members do. It is something I have to deal with as Moses went through the same thing.

5- “What about the other 35 million or so? How are you going to reach them when you do nothing but spend your time here repeating the same stuff while insulting those who threaten your fantasy world, and expecting a different result?”
QNS. The ones whose eyes God opens will help me reach the other 41 million of us. Did not Moses eventually have help? Did not Jesus eventually have help? Did not Prophet Mohammed eventually have help? How could you say with a rationale minds that our sovereignty is a fantasy world?

Tell me what you think.

What say you?

Tuesday, September 8th 2009 at 6:23PM
Harry Watley

Hello Steve,

Let me explain this to you. When I was first anointed the communication, if you will lasted for a while between God and I. It was like when my mind was uncomfortable about something, the answer or explanation would come right to me without having to exert any mentally effort.

I remember once that you, Steve said to me sarcastically and jokingly do I have a Staff as Moses did. I smile to my self because God strictly told me that Moses is my sign when I began my venture.

Consequentially, I understood from God inspiration that if my critics and adversaries cannot get by Moses they would not be able to get by me. Now, if I just recently began to refer to Moses perhaps you would have a point. However, I have been referring to the story of Moses from day one as a comparison and contrast to me.

Do you all not see that no one could topple me, and that is because I am God Chosen One and you all do not believe yet. Everything that I say is eventually going to happen. Black Americans will become a sovereignty people on a portion of this continent that we could call our very own country with borders, Steve.

Furthermore, I told you once before Steve that divine intervention of freeing a subjugated people as Black Americas are is not the same as operating a business.

Tell me what you think.

What say you?

Tuesday, September 8th 2009 at 6:49PM
Harry Watley

Hello Harry,

Let' take one step at a time, The first five books of the bible (the Pentateuch) were, at the time of the Geneva Bible and King James Bible, believed to have been written by Moses. Modern biblical scholarship says that they were composed from at least 4 different sources of earlier traditions.(I get this from the New Oxford Study Bible). Now I am asking a very simple question, so as to proceed step by step. Who do you believe wrote the Pentateuch, or does it even matter? This is a straightforward question, please provide a straightforward answer. I have a reason for asking this, so we may go step by step.
Tuesday, September 8th 2009 at 8:16PM
Steve Williams

Hello Steve,

It does not matter who is responsible for writing the Pentateuch, since the focus is on Moses and the gist of the story. It is a story that the Jewish people today embraces.

Again, it is not about who wrote the story. It is about the contents.

The story is about people in bondage who had not the wherewithal to help themselves and God helped them.

Tell me what you think.

What say you?

Wednesday, September 9th 2009 at 3:05AM
Harry Watley

Hello Harry,

On this we agree 100%. We are making progress.
Wednesday, September 9th 2009 at 8:32AM
Steve Williams

Harry, You know it would be a wonderful thing to witness true brotherhood as a woman who grew up in the NOI but this by far is not what Malcolm, Martin, or even Farrakhan would have wanted from you, to spur such venom amongst the people just to get the upper hand is uncivilized at best. If you don't like our blogs so be it but to attack a person on a world wide web constantly is so uncivilized. I expected you to know better because of your being a 65 year old man so you know how it goes.

Anytime somebody can pull you down to the dozens they have pushed a button in you and that is what you must work on. What does it profit to get one up on our brothers and sisters; me and Irma are still your sisters. The purpose of the Whiteman was taught to show us what lies truly within ourselves 7 times more potent.

All eyes are on us Harry and do we want the world to see us as being truly babies still talking gobbly goo goo? There is a beautiful person in all of us here and we all have so much to offer our community. It's like the builders of the mother plane no one knew what the other knew but together they built our greatest weapon of battle.

My BIA family has given me so much on this site that thank you is not enough, I ask you Harry to rise above your emotions to at least if not sharpen the brother to think about doing better. Love will conquer all, yet somebody got to be the bigger person and extend the olive branch.

Before you come back with "Sister Muhammad stay in your place", I AM in my place as being an NOI member to tap my brothers and sisters on their shoulders to let them know that is NOT the way Malcolm and Martin and Farrakhan taught. So please take this in the spirit in which it's offered. I pray that this tap reach the godhood of you and you will grow from there. We are losing too many men (and women) to the dozen games. Rise to the top and be the cream of the Planet earth AND JUST MAYBE YOU CAN GROW TO THE god OF THE UNIVERSE.

FYI want for your brother what you want for yourself! Food for thought healthy ears can stand sick words! Remember we war not against flesh and blood but against prince of darkness and wickedness in high places!!!

Wednesday, September 9th 2009 at 12:57PM
Siebra Muhammad

Hello Ms. Muhammad,

Ever since I met you on BIA, you have never made any sense of anything you have said. However, with one exception when you recently asked me if you should denounce the NOI and join me to become a sovereign people or have complete independence from White America on a portion of this continent that we could call our very own country with borders to pursue Life, Liberty, Happiness and Prosperity in our own way. I said, yes.

Now, you said this, “Harry, You know it would be a wonderful thing to witness true brotherhood as a woman who grew up in the NOI but this by far is not what Malcolm, Martin, or even Farrakhan would have wanted from you, to spur such venom amongst the people just to get the upper hand is uncivilized at best.”

How could you say that my concept of being a sovereign people or having complete independence for Black American on a portion of this continent is spurring incivility and venom amongst Black Americans? Do you not think that your statement is out-right stupid, especially for a college graduate?

Tell me what you think.

Thursday, September 10th 2009 at 10:59AM
Harry Watley

In the words of Charlie Brown's teacher: BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH!

ROTFLMAO!
Thursday, September 10th 2009 at 1:19PM
Siebra Muhammad

Hello Mr. Maxwell,

Mr. Maxwell, the differences of intelligence that I am trying to point between Black Americans and dark skinned people and White Americans and Caucasian people cannot be measured genetically speaking. It could only be measure racially.

Genetic is something that is physical and tangible while intelligence is spiritual and intangible. Genetics are the same for all humankind. However, intelligence could be measured by comparing one race with another race using a very simple scenario to resolve a problem. General intelligence equals how information is processed in the brain that affects the out come of the entire problem.

Understand the point that I am trying to make. I realize there are knuckleheads in all races. However, Black Americans and dark skinned people seem to have more than our share as compare to other races. I know that I am right in my analyses because Black Americans cannot talk about one thing and agree on common sense items.

For instance, I constantly advocate the sovereignty of Black Americans as our only permanent solution that we could become real people in this world. Many of you, your brains has process my concept of our sovereignty to the philosophy of the KKK and separation.

Now, last night when President Obama made his speech to the joint session of congress tears came to eye and I re-affirm to God to give us if not better what White America’s forefathers have built for themselves. You all just do not know how much I tip my hat to White American people despite there faults.

Now, the congressman from S.C. who called President Obama a liar is indeed a knucklehead. Again, there are not as many White knuckleheads as there are Black knuckleheads and that is the point that I am trying to make.

Do any of you all not suppose that the majority of the Hebrew people were knuckleheads before Moses was anointed? Do you not think the Hebrew people thought that they were more intelligent than the Egyptians and Moses? As all of you think that, you are smarter than White American people and I as well.

If you all are so wise, how it is that you would not want to have your own country since we been in slavery and subjugation all of our existence as a people?

Tell me what you think.

Thursday, September 10th 2009 at 4:28PM
Harry Watley

Well, shouting "you lie", and calling people "knuckleheads" seem equally disrespectful to me, Harry.
Thursday, September 10th 2009 at 4:58PM
Steve Williams

Hello Mr. Maxwell,

Let me begin and that I am going to indulge for a while.

Okay, you said this, “What you fail to realize is this: while it may seem like common sense to you, without any factual basis for what you are demanding, there is no basis to assume that anyone else, other than you, will see what you are saying is “common sense.”

QNS. Well, the factual basis for sovereignty is this. Take education for example, Black Americans began fight White American to education us equally before 1954 and today the NAACP has petitions in the courts still about educational matter. Common sense should tell the Black heavy hitters of education that no race has a monopoly on education. Education is what a race could learn out of God’s creation. However, if the Black race were sovereign there would not be a need to beg the White people for an education. Consequentially, the Blacks do not have the common sense to see this rational for themselves as you exhibit yourself. The facts are is that you are still fighting for an education.

Next, you said this, “But if you tell me that white intelligence is superior to black intelligence, and the evidence you offer to support that is that there are “more black knuckleheads than white knuckleheads” and you cannot provide any factual evidence to prove that out, other than what is your OPINION based on YOUR experience, then it is NOT a lack of common sense to not accept that and have a DIFFERENT OPINION. Having a difference of opinion in this regard is not a lack of “sense” that is “common” to all. Do you understand? So my question for you is on the basis of what have you determined it to be a fact that there are “more white knuckleheads than black” and thus white intelligence is superior to black intelligence?”

QNS. Yes, I do understand you. Okay, the evidence that White intelligence is superior to Blacks is that Whites owns and operates everything essential to the survival of Blacks in White America. Consequentially, Blacks are always in a vulnerable predicament. For example, the hospitals across the country are White hospitals. Now, if a Black owns a hospital it is only on paper. The laws of Whites will regulate it and ultimately White have jurisdiction. Blacks must understand that White American people and no other people own the real estate of America. Now, if Black were sovereign people the Black owned hospital would be free and clear.

Next, you said this, “Now, we can extrapolate that to your larger premise that somehow, black Americans are lacking in intelligence, lacking common sense, etc. because the black Americans you have posed this to do not automatically accept that there is no other solution to anything but to have “sovereignty within a country with borders of our very own,” and that you are a Savior ordained by God. Without any evidence to that effect, it becomes a question of OPINION as to how anyone might think about what you demand, either way. And it becomes a matter of FAITH, and not fact or “common sense” on the part of anyone who would accept you as who you say you are and what your purpose is.”

QNS. Well, for the time being this statement is true. Your faith in me as to who I say that I am plays a part as well the use of your best common sense of the things I say whether they make any sense to you. For instance, you could imagine that we are a sovereign people and compare and contrast in you mind the before and after. No doubt you should be elated to be sovereign free rather than being a subjugate people still in White America. In addition, having faith indicates what you want that you cannot provide for you self and you should have enough to want to be sovereign free.

What say you?

Thursday, September 10th 2009 at 11:27PM
Harry Watley

Harry, if Clark (or any one) says they are not subjugated, why would tell them they are?

Clark, I am afraid you have used reason, and that does not count.
Friday, September 11th 2009 at 12:18AM
Steve Williams

Clark I TOTALLY agree with you on that statement, for math does not allow one to be lost. When you teach someone that 2+2=4 and then teach them the formula HOW it is true, you cannot come and share with that same person that has learned the formula that 2+2=10. Since Harry believes our hearts has been hardened against wrong, the wrong that has been perpetrated against me and any other BIA member involved leaves us no choice but to take the necessary steps in RIGHTING the wrong.

Harry, what you fail to realize is that you brought this problem on yourself. You constantly accuse the BIA members of making war with you, when you are the one guilty of the war making. Also by continuing to make war with us, you are allowing it to blind you to the truth. I’ll tell you why you want to continue to make war with us on this site: You want it to be that you are telling the truth. You want it to be that every lie you spew about Black Americans is the reality of it. Why do you want this so bad Harry? Because you and your cheerleaders are the ones that are extremely fearful, hoping, wishing and praying that you’ll never have to face judgment day; that you would never have to account for your actions, and continuing to throw scare tactics at us in all of your opposition gives you some glimmer of hope that you would never have to be judged. This gives you the so-called freedom to think, say and do as you please without ever having to pay for it. You are just kissing the Devil's ass, calling yourself sovereign while acting like nothing more than the holy-roller preachers on TV who also wish they would never have to come face-to-face-with God.

So to Harry and all who agree with him, if you think your idea of liberation and freedom far exceeds ours, I say to you in the words of Minister Farrakhan: “Show me your God. If he don’t want to see me than I sure as hell don’t want to see him."

And to the ones who doubt the warnings of Farrakhan such as California breaking off from this country, the fall of this man’s economy, Hurricane Katrina, the September 11, attacks, etc. I suggest you check out the discovery/history/science channel. Tell me the FOX, CNN, and MSNBC news reporters are not terrified of what the Bible warned our people about (right there in the Book of Revelations) years before they even knew the problems existed. The only problem for them is that it’s too late for some of them to do anything about it. And yet the temperature in California is STEADILY RISING. So where’s your solution Harry (IT DAMN SURE AIN'T HYBRID CARS).

Think over this and reconsider if your behavior towards us are worth the genocide that will most certainly visit our people for the lack of accepting the truth!!!

Friday, September 11th 2009 at 4:07PM
Siebra Muhammad

Sister Siebra, you have referred more than once to Harry's supporters, but I have not seen any.
Friday, September 11th 2009 at 4:35PM
Steve Williams

Hello Steve,

Steve you asked this question, “Harry, if Clark (or any one) says they are not subjugated, why would tell them they are?”

Well Steve, the subjugation has to do with my people and why I have to tell them, firstly is because I am their prophet who will lead them out of subjugation. Furthermore, Clark is subjugated as well. You are the only one dialoguing with us that is not subjugated because you are White.

Would you have asked Moses the same question you asked me? If you did, would you think of yourself that you are being intelligent. I do not believe you would have been foolish.

What say you?

Friday, September 11th 2009 at 7:18PM
Harry Watley

Hello Harry,

I am subjugated in many ways, by taxes, social security payments, licensing requirements, insurance requirements, erosion of my constitutional rights, the two party system, age discrimination, etc. So I could say: I will only be free when this government is restored to it's origins. And there are many who want that, but I am not hopeful it will happen.

But what I would like to ask is this: We know the story of Moses, from birth to death. He escaped being slain as an infant. He saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew and killed him. He tried to intervene in a fight between two Hebrews and fled to Midian. He argued with God that he had not the speaking ability to lead his people.

I know very little of you personally Harry. Could you give me a little background, especially as to how you have personally experienced subjugation, not your people, but you and your family and friends. On a personal level?
Friday, September 11th 2009 at 8:32PM
Steve Williams

Hello Steve,

You asked, ”I know very little of you personally Harry. Could you give me a little background, especially as to how you have personally experienced subjugation, not your people, but you and your family and friends. On a personal level? “

Firstly, when I was anointed, all Black Americans who are descendents of slaves were anointed as well, it you will.

Anyway, I grew up in the ‘60. I was a contractor and a 3 million dollar was wrongfully manipulated from me. My friends and I went bowling in a White neighborhood and was chased by White thugs and the police said they could not do anything unless we were hurt. Oh, Steve there is so many incidents.

I do not think you want to understand, especially when you feel Black Americans should not be sovereign people on a portion of this continent.

What say you?

Friday, September 11th 2009 at 11:19PM
Harry Watley

Thank you for sharing Harry. I would not have asked if I did not care.
Friday, September 11th 2009 at 11:29PM
Steve Williams

Hello Steve,

I want you know, or have you thought on your own that, prophets are ordinary people, except that God plays apart in their lives for a specific cause?

Tell me what you think.

Sunday, September 13th 2009 at 1:57PM
Harry Watley

Hello Harry,

I think a lot about the role pf prophets. I have just finished reading 1 Kings and started reading 2 Kings, about Elijah and Elisha, and it also mentions the company of prophets, mention their number as 400 in one place and 450 in another.

It speaks of the acts of Elijah and Elisha, but I wonder what all these other prophets did. They seem to have been advisors to the king.
Sunday, September 13th 2009 at 2:54PM
Steve Williams

I guess some people even our own government can not take the lands owned by much of my family who have land in N.C.

Actually it is too bad that some people have chosen not to admit that Moses was in a dessert and not on land owned by those like my youngest daughter. She is what I call a walking Christian Bible, but I just crack up laughing picturing some one coming to take her house away from her in the name of God.

I am sure that she will respond to show this person just before they breath their last their last breath in this life time just how much greater her God is then theirs!!!LOL
Thursday, April 10th 2014 at 6:47PM
ROBINSON IRMA

Clark, does this remind you of how they wanted to bar Judge Sotamajor from serving on the Supreme Court because she was going to come to the court with her memory in tack??? Maybe these are some that already have been living in this make believe world with its own borders and have excaped...Or maybe just lucky because they don't have dark skin therefore they are not expected to be made brain dead until the Master programs them as people of color must do.

Oh and why did someone tell me that lie about a people named "Indians" lived on these shores of America...how dare they fool me like that...how dare they!!!!!(smile)
Thursday, April 10th 2014 at 6:47PM
ROBINSON IRMA

Thank you brother Clark for that. It is what I have been trying to get across about the change that has those younge people backing our president as no other time in history. It is a unity of pride in who you are and the culture from which you see the world which you live in. And, doing so as Mozell said without those "BLINDERS" on.The White, Red, Black ,Yellow children has the right to be proud of their culture and mostly of how we all helped to make this country what it is today. While still being forced to try and unite dispite our being so miseducated. How many of those before, say about 20-25- years ago were taught in school any thing about the Black, Indian,White etc. family structure...and why so few of us Blacks will fight against this Father as head of the family as not part of their culture...and guess what it is because we refuse to give up our cultrue we are taught via the TV that it is morally wrong to not have a father as head of the household...Me, I am still up set over that CNN last special going all the way to Africa to teach how Black children are failing school even in Africa because their fathers are in Jail.

People who is the preson the grown man calls when he is in trouble!!!!LOL

Now I will once again stop here before I have to delete my own self again!!!!lov ya, but education is the magic bullet...follow those younge people's lead on how they have made sure the first step in rebuilding our government has begun with them coming out in force behind our president, we can join them and move on to unity or hesitate and let the right-wing take over again...but, our president and those younge have now left us in the dust...THIS ANGRY BLACK MAN HAS NO TIME TO PLAY THE BLAME GAME...you did hear his warning today to this WHOLE country....CHANGE HAS COME...get behind him or move the "hell" out of his way, BECAUSE he is fired up and ready to go next wed!SMILE!

you are for him or you are against him HAS no more TIME FOR THIS pointing fingers and placing balme...
Thursday, April 10th 2014 at 6:47PM
ROBINSON IRMA

Good for you Steve. Only an open mind is able to try and seen things, people, places as for ever changing...this is called "livf it self is a process and this is why we have a society that is for ever changing. Some times for the better and some time for the worst but it is only byway of not repeating the things that have not worked for that person and they continue to do the same things and inspecting a different out come, is not called progress but insanity(smile)

THIS IS ALSO CALLED LEARNING FROM EXPERIENCE is the best teacher...YES WE CAN...
Thursday, April 10th 2014 at 6:47PM
ROBINSON IRMA

Harry why have you not been on my post?!!!!?????I know that I am in control of your life,(and you your self has proven this to be a proven truth as well as a proven fact on this very site) because as soon as I talked about you only trying to abuse and stalk the females you went right after seeing my saying this to the blogs of the males.

W-H-Y did you do this Harry or is this an addition to what God who according to you has no voice but you see me as someone with a voice/INSPIRING telling you what to do with you own life....LOL

did God inspire you to follow my lead, brother Harry?????????(smile)
Thursday, April 10th 2014 at 6:47PM
ROBINSON IRMA

And, Harry what you need to do is to stop asking or is it commanding otheres to do what you are too lazy,afraid to do...talk directly to me and not try to get others to allow you to hide behind your fears of me. I am only a Black individual who has already DONE every goal I have ever set out to do and you have no way over there on planet Stuck on Stupid to have a mind open enough to let in TRUTH/ THE REAL WORLD CALLED planet E-A-R-T-H..fight your own abattles against the White man or against slave mentality. In other words PUT UP OR SHUT UP ABOUT HOW DEPENDANT YOU ARE ON OTHERS TO BE ABLE TO MEET YOUR GOALS or God's inspriartions for one Harry Watley.

Hell you can not even get past me/or face me with using only words and an opened mind. So how in the *&%$@##** do you believe that you can aquire land in the first plac?!?.

You are trying to use Steve to try and stop me and my opened mind. This is all you are up against Harry the ability to have self-esteem and total plus some more being proud to be who I am because the minds of my ansestors were never put under the controls of those like you who believe that your use of the Bible can do this to ALL of us. Hell Harry all it took was just one slave to protect his/her mind against your kind of abuse...or have you noticed that there is not a White man in the Whitehouse today?SMILE? It took 400years to accomplish this but our race have no end when it comes to surviving on planet Earth.(smile)

WAKE UP...and take notice of ...YES WE DID...YES WE JUST GoT STARTED...LOL and a pat on our backs and much love, respect and h-a-r-d work ahead of us...FIRED UP, READY TO GO...(a mile wide smile)
Thursday, April 10th 2014 at 6:47PM
ROBINSON IRMA

Steve the first thing is to try to see people that are not White as INDIVIDUALS...The second,or maybe the first, is to see that some Blacks do not like, respect, agree with, ect. other Blacks...The main way that a Black person can spot someone who see us a diffirent +defective is to be able to recognize these two things as believing that we are "less than" and have the beliefs that we as a race/culture are not due equality...

And, why is this..well it is because being BIA is an experience not a skin color/lable in the first place. But, that we are INDIVIDUALS, end of story.(smile)
Thursday, April 10th 2014 at 6:47PM
ROBINSON IRMA

Steve please try to understand that we in America have been delbgrately miseducated which has cause some lasting problems that will not be over come any time soon. but, we as a people called Black are a patient people because we do things today for the benefits of our grandchildren!!!We are not out for instant gradification but are in this for the long run. We have been for the past 400 years having the White man trying to keep us down.ONe of the greatest weapons that they have given us to keep each other down is their religion.It was really a happy sight to see all of those young students of all races and religions backing Barack H. Obama and it is all due to people we so hate, the Black panthers. because of them our colleges have a way to reeducate all cultures from the Native-Americans to the Japanese...And, please before one comes to say I am anti-Christ, I am not. but, if you pay close attention even the Pope is now Willing to open his church's doors for all other faiths and this is what he said not me...""If they do not get together the Christian religion is going to become exrtinct"!!!!And why is the pope so concerned, well maybe it is because people are now doing what is best for them. Not having children each year, Preist getting married and their members not telling about them. They have got to start allowing the church to come into to step with society that realize that now they want to be able to think for themselves and not be told who to be friends with no matter the religion, s*x or race or skin color...People are doing what is best for them and their family...

And, Steve back to miseducation, Thomas Jefferson did put no slavery will be in the new 13 states, but he was over ruled on this...a lot like this bill our president is trying to get put in will go against the big business and in those days slavery was big business...another truth they forgot to tell you is the Constitution was meant to protect the FEW against the Many...the few were the rich slave owners and the many were the slaves and the poor white peoples.

I am sure you think I must be out of my mind...but the truth is what is able to do the harm that America worrys about(smile)Try getting America to admit that Oprah and Obama are the most powerful people in America bar none.(smile)This is why they need us to be against both of theirs and many more of those that came from the guidance of . Rev J. Wright.

WAKE UP ...LOOK AT HOW THEY HAVE HAD US TURN AGAINST THE TRUE LEADERS IN THIS COUNTRY THAT HAS BROUGHT SUCH CHANGE and we have no idea what is going on because the White man did not tellus...WHAT A PITY.....AND I AM FIGHTING MAD AT US ALL....WAKE UP...All of us have not been sleeping since they killed Dr. King....and they can not bring down all of what our president has spent his whole life trying to do with out us helping them to do this...NOW i WILL SHUT UP AND CALM DOWN...
Thursday, April 10th 2014 at 6:47PM
ROBINSON IRMA

Brother Steve repeat after me..."Harry is the only one responsible for his affect and his effect on him as well as his enviornment, and, not Steve".

Now my brother repeat this, "I have never owned a slave in my life". Then let it go, O.K.?

We survived slavery...but we do not have equality for ourselves, and as long as there is a human need to survive there will always be a conflict between mankind in some form or the other and this is because we are human and no one wants to be on the bottom be it because of : gender, wealth, religion, country, culture and any and all things that man see, believe is needed or wanted or what ever ,etc.

The very best we as humans can accomplish is to do unto others as we want them to do to us...(smile) which one must admit this is hard to do when it comes to a natural enemy called ignorance...
Thursday, April 10th 2014 at 6:47PM
ROBINSON IRMA

And, as far as Russia and slavery. their slaver did not end until the Communist took over and that was only lately...that is if it was not just changing one set of slave names for another form of subservants...Oh, well to each it's own as the saying goes(smile)because the last I heard they were fighting the communist for their freedoms....
Thursday, April 10th 2014 at 6:47PM
ROBINSON IRMA

Lets put it this way Steve all races of people have been held as slaves..so what does a Black person have to say that any other race should have to say about this issue.NOw I am a decendant of slaves, and may be I was not as we have been so mixed, plus all Blacks in this country were not slaves?

Did you know that the religion tah TD Jakes belongs to says that if you are from Africans that were never slaves you can not get into heaven...yse that Td Jakes and if he ever say different than this they will take away his private plane.

so my brother Steve it is all in how one looks at this and if they have self-esteem, are proud of their skin color. Like me I see slavery as something we survived from. the racist have a bigger peoblem with us that we do with us as former slaves...

Check out how much of our counrty has gone out of control because they can not take a White mman not being in that White house. Now it is more skin color than any thing else because if Obama had taken the color of his mother's skin do you believe they would be so out of control????(smile)a nd it is all good...lov ya still no matter the color of you skin(smile)

NOw my brother have I helped you any about RACISM?????iT IS MOREhatred of a skin color that HAS BEEN TAUGHT....
Thursday, April 10th 2014 at 6:47PM
ROBINSON IRMA