HOLY LOCKDOWN: DOES THE CHURCH LIMIT BLACK PROGRESS? BY JEREMIAH CAMARA (RECOMMENDED READING)

My daddy purchased the book after hearing Mr. Camara speak on the Michael Baisden show and loaned it to me over a week ago. I found his comments to be refreshing. The book does challenge certain issues that the black community faces as well as the same ol' same ol' approach to delivering the gospel to the mentality we still have in the church. Okay, enough of the talking, read the book for yourself. When the truth begins to flow, the people begin to grow (Yeah, baby, I made a rap).

Finally, someone other than me chiming in on the obvious. Christianity has plagued -- I mean enriched -- Black people's minds for a very long time. If anyone chooses to research, it'll become strikingly clear that Christians have a lower IQ than non-believers. Anyone who gets their education and morals from some ancient texts may as well get their personailty from some well-dressed, charismatic speaker. Oh wait, that describes a large percentage of Blacks to a T, doesn't it? Religion doesn't have any answers b/c it doesn't ask any questions. From the time we're young we're told "not to question God" or, when we start to ask questions our parents and grannies can't answer, we may have heard, "now don't go getting too smart for God!" I know I hearrd this a lot growing up. When we get our hands hit from going into the fire, we stop reaching for the fire.

Science is just the opposite. While religion is based on "faith", science looks for "facts". Some of the world's greatest minds in history have rejected religion time and again but it won't just take no for an answer. To answer the question of why Blacks are Jesus-praising and still ___, one response might be, "two hands working get a lot more done than 100 hands praying". The existence of "life" is the greatest mystery of all time and will forever be. When did we get here? How did we get here? Is there life after death? Is there life outside of planet Earth? While throughout history, many scientists and highly intelligent men have sought answers to these questions, yet the old lady in the wooden house in rural America has ALL the answers -- or so she THINKS -- and forces these so-called "answers" onto her children and more often grandchildren -- therefore recycling the same fear of thought. Without research and debate, we would still believe the earth was flat. Martin Luther (15th century, NOT MLK) nearly went to his grave believing this b/c "the Bible said so". It was also believed during his time that any object heavier than air would never fly. If we all merely accepted what we were told as little children, we never would've flown across the Atlantic Ocean, travelled into space, and enjoyed all the marvels of nature and diverse cultures around the world. What's wrong w/saying "I DON'T KNOW"? As Chris Rock said in the movie Dogma, "It's okay to have ideas, you can change ideas. But y'all took an idea and made a belief system out of it. Now changing a belief? Well that's a little trickier."

Philosopher Paul Kurtz put it this way:
"Religious systems of belief, thought, emotion, and attitude are products of the creative human imagination. They traffic in fantasy and fiction, taking the promises of long-forgotten historical figures and endowing them with eternal cosmic significance."

Irma, I think I recall reading once that you're Bhuddist, is that correct? That would explain the logic in your post -- which is great, by the way. I've never understood how seemingly intelligent and otherwise self-reliant people would "turn all their troubles over to the Lord" anyway. Then, as you so eloquently put it, give "them (or s/b "him")" thanks for their lack of self-esteem; which, in a strange way, brings it back to where this post began. Maybe that's WHY we're so non-progressive as a peole. Good stuff! Would love to hear another side ...

Anyone? Anyone? Beuhler?

"None progresive and non productive...Does that include those who answered this blog?"
No.

"What does God have to do with you getting up and going to work?"
Who knows. This response is straight from a Christian perspective which is what we're discussing here. Just b/c you say it's so doesn't make it so.

"Sometimes you just have to let folks do their own thing. Especially when it comes to religion."
I agree completely. That's why I'm sick of folks knocking on my door, stopping me in traffic, or interfering w/how I rear my kids and judging me according to THEIR beliefs. Hey, if it was THAT clear that God exists then he's certainly been an absentee landlord over the last 4,000 years. Wouldn't you agree?

"This place we live and write so freely...may be subject more burdensom restraint upon your liberty."
Subject to more burdensome? There have been more killings and wars in the name of God than any other reason in history. Maybe the opposite is true. There's a reason Athiests don't fly airplanes into buildings.

Question: Why can't you reason with a Christian? Because if you could, there wouldn't be any Christians!

Whooa nellie, Lawrence Welk would say:
WE get caught up in the MasterAmerican definitions-cause in 1865--WE chose the language and belief of master for our salvation.

'God said, and we gave Moses(as) the word of Creator and made it a guidance to the offspring of Creator---take no Creator besides me----"

Our Leader President Baraka Hussein Obama in Cairo said "America is a muslim nation and he came to Cairo with greetings from Muslims in America."

Lets follow Our Leader President Baraka Hussein Obama.

One word for you Mr. Powell: "Huh?"

It's unfortunate, I thought the origin of this post could have resulted in some very much needed and productive dialogue and debate. Good riddance.

Now this is what I'm talking about! An intelligent response from the other side of the aisle. Well put as always, Clark. Without getting too verbose, I must address the question to the question, “Why is it that Blacks are amongst the most Jesus-praising people on earth, yet the most fragmented and economically dependent?” and "there is no connection between these two observations."

I contend there is a clear and obvious one. For starters, we've all heard how God has "blessed" someone by material things. The pastor supports his lavish lifestyle b/c of these "blessings". Or the couple that are doing extremely well will say they're "blessed". So, if we give merit to prosperity as favor w/God then it's only fair that an objective person looks at the whole picture, and that's what this author did. Look at the Asian culture. They are largely Bhudists, yet many came here as immigrants and within 10 years have amassed a better quality of ife than Blacks who've been here generationally for 399 years. If our/your "God" is who we/you claim he is, then how does this happen? They don't even acknowledge any deity -- God, Allah, nobody -- just Karma. And the author doesn't say that religin is the ONLY thing that has held us back, but it's clear that it hasn't helped any.

And Clark, the Bible doesn't teach industriousness, thrift and responsibility exclusively -- ALL holy texts do. But the Bible is the only one that says a rich man can't get to heaven! This way of thinking is unacceptable in Judaism. in fact, it is a curse for a man to be broke and almost sinful for a man to gain wealth and lose it.

Good response, though. It's just too bad Christians always enter into a discussion about their faith w/their defenses up.

Oh, and BTW (I was posting while making my son's lunch apparently while you were posting, Mozell) I am not an Atheist, I'm completely Agnostic. One verse of the Bible I quote is, "Only a fool has said in his heart there is no God" -- and I ain't no fool. But I live by this better doctrine: "Extreme Agnostic: I Don't Know & You Don't Know Either!"

I would like to know whether the buddhist have a section within their holy book that describes how slaves are to act towards their masters, like the bible does.

Mr. Maxwell and Mozell, THANK YOU!!!! I'd say the two of you collectively covered it. There's really not much for me to say except that I wholeheartedly agree with both of you and Mr. Maxwell, I appreciate your in-depth commentary about the Word by using the Word. Mozell, I appreciate how you summed it all up.

This same conversation, in one manner or another, gets had quite frequently on BIA. I've learned to plant the seeds of biblical truth and keep going. I will say that I am always betwixt at how some will try and use the Bible to make a point without having done the research, the study required, to form the right perspective and derive the correct doctrinal standard by utilizing context. Mr. Maxwell, your explanation of the "eye of the needle" and the rich man is very timely. Many will take a single scripture (or maybe two or three) and try to make a point from it (them). That's something call prooftexting. When the before and after is not studied, the meaning is usually missed and as you pointed out, Mr. Maxwell, it was was missed entirely.

Exegesis is necessary when studying scripture. It will give you both precepts and context that enhance one's understanding of what he/she is studying. Researching word origins also helps.

Anyway, I don't want to get off topic. I just know that God is so God. My whole life is a huge indicator of His IS-ness. I don't try to describe the comfort anymore. I don't try to explain the sheer peace, even in the midst of life's many storms. I can't describe the hope and the awesomeness of having a way made out of no way daily. I can't explain to an unbeliever because even the Word says that I shouldn't expect to. It'd be like speaking Spanish to a Frenchman. Unless you experience it, live it-- BELIEVE it-- you wouldn't understand.

I always wonder though...for those who don't accept JC as Lord and Savior...what if you're wrong? (And that's a rhetorical question just for the sake of challenging the mindset and the hardened hearts on those hell bent on discreding Him).

Blessings...

I meant "discrediting" Him in that last sentence.

Blessings...

My final contributions on this debate b/c it's clear that no one's going to be converted one way or the other. But in reference to the "eye of the needle" comment that I originally brought up, let me very clear about one thing: IF YOU SPEND YOUR ENTIRE LIFE STUDYING ONLY ONE BOOK -- THEN, OF COURSE YOU KNOW IT THOROUGHLY! I'm not impressed. Impress me and quote alternative views from people like Arthur Schopenhauer or Joseph Conrad or Bertrand Russell or Walt Whitman. You people submerge yourselves so deeply in one train of thought w/out even atempting to verify its authenticity; which is why the rest of the world laughs at your gullibility. This religion was forced upon your forefathers and those that forced it have since walked away from it. You keep reading the same "old" text and make mockery of it by calling it "the good news". No, this is olds.

Who are Matthew, Mark, Luke and John anyway? Why did NONE of the great writers of JC's time mention him -- except ONE -- if his fame spread throughout the land? I don't see how you guys can drive w/out crashing w/your eyes shut so tight. Open your eyes and look around you. Christianity is dying in other cultures. A poll taken about 2 years ago showed that the largest percentage of believers were Black -- and by gender, female. So, "Black women" by large numbers are the biggest believers. Followed by Hispanics. So, why is it that the two highest perecentage of believers are the lowest on the financial rung? And to say there's no connection is a joke. Just like the Bible, CHRISTIANS have no answers b/c they ask no questions! If you all alowed yourselves to do REAL research -- and not just Bible research, Dee -- you might stumble upon some real answers. Not just supportive fairy tales.

Mr. Maxwell, you said: "Now, the African American population is 40.7 million at last count, which means they make up approximately 2% of the Christians in the world. How is it then that all these whites, Asians, Semitic peoples, who are Christians, are not similarly affected? Could it be something other than Christianity?"

That's a fantastic point and one that Camara probably could not answer because his whole premise is senseless to me. He's leaving out some stark realities and all too easily placing 'blame' on the church, namely Christianity. I won't be reading his book...and not because I'm not open-minded, but because the premise of his argument is imbalanced, biased and heavily medicated (from what I've read so far) with heavy innuendo. Thanks, but no thanks. It's been a great discussion though.

I respect the opinions here but do not agree with all of them. It's great to be able to say that without getting one's head bitten off. Thanks, All.

Blessings...

I believe that every other ethnic group that has come to America except the Native-Americans and The African-Americans have had a better chance to get ahead. for example,The native-American is kept drunk and have had themselves put out in no man's land. From when they were marched off their lands in the outh east when gold was found, Then again when gold was found it the bad lands and now the oil was found on thier resevations. Now in exchange for the oil they get cacinos and no one knows because we learned about these people at the cow boy and indian show on sat. at the movie. All in the name of God!The same way we learned the all blacks will steal and are violent!!!!!!!

We the Black people get intergration and the next thing we get is our children carring guns to schools as if killing each other after school was not good enough or faster enough and guess what...we go from it is God's you child died, but he/she is in heaven...well to now we have a Black president so every thing will be alright.No, I am in no way talking about the Bible or any religion, I am talking about the human bein gand their behavior which is too big for any one or even many different faiths or beliefs. I am talking about the REAL WORLD...America!!!!!

In the mean time what have we learned.....We have learned nothing beyond it is not in our hands to deliver ourselves out of this wilderness we are in....so we go from it is not "our will ' to it is the white man's and maybe it is because when we had our own we gave thanks to mother nature and did fine as the people who started CIVILIZATION by thanking the Nile river!!!!!!!!WAKE UP we as a race of people are still considered the scum of the earth, now tell me the god willed this to be??????WAKE UP my people we have gotten no where and we will never get any where unless and until we take matters into our own hands and get off of our knees and get to work as if our childrens and their children's lives depends on us to stand up and be counted....(smile) yes, I am mad as h--again and tired of these excuses and puting our lives every where but in our own hands.....

Do you know that expression, "I met the enemy and it is us"(smile)

No Clark, lets keep in on this post, because we must start to look at religion and speech and individual opinions as free to all. We need very much to be able to get beyond as you said the 'emotional' (subjective)state and on to the 'objective' (factual)state.

This is how we get stuck in our own ignorance of right and wrong instead of seeing both of these as a needed balance/ complementto each other.

I have in reading these different comments now better under stand what this post is actually about..I have not read the book, but if I do I will not read it as any thing but as informational. I do not believe in absoluts any way as mine is a seeking mind which believes that the end of something is the beginning of something else.And, because I also believe that every thing I know has a history (except Aides) that should always come into the equasion.(smile)

Helen as I have said many times in tis site that there are countless Buddhish teachings just as there are Christian versions of the St James Bible. I will speak for the Buddhist practice aht I study and do so at least every day, In Nicherren Daishonin. 1 The female had bee seen as an equal ever since the practice existed.2.everyone is equal because you can not see something in another person that is not in you.3. The best way that I cn explain slavery in this practice is as you are the only one with power over you then if you chose to be a 'slave ' then be happy being one.Every thing in your life you play a paart in it.I tis practice a Budda is someone who can learn how to bring peace and happines to the world as well as themselves that no one can take away, but as life changes from moment to moment it is hard to remail a Buddah. You for example have made you family and you safe and happy and with fear or care, then you are a Buddah, but if you loos your job and can not continue then you are angy, up set and maybe want to strike out...I repeat it is hard to be a Buddah, because of human nature and the natural need to survive...One of the main things about Buddhism that I have found in most of them is Y-O-U have power that is limitless, just use them as if you have the power to do so...

In short Helen, Buddhism says that you are the master of you...it's you life, P-E-R-I-O-D...hard to believe isn't it...(smile)

Love you all and tis is a great post...this is how you do not declare war...you dialoge...PLEASE take notice at what is going on right now in the Middle-east. The ballet not the bullets...

I do believe that we all agree on these three things:

1. Do unto othere as you want others to do unto you.

2.Be a RESPONSIABLE individual, and may be go so far as to take full responsibility for the 'causes' you make and the effects(or consquances)you get in return from your actions;and, to even try to learn from our own mistakes.

3.Seek the truth(facts)

Oh, and roberts out there is it too much to hope that you will ever be able to come out of your EBONIC denial?LOL

I have noticed how the right-wing is trying to pull away from their this is a Christian nation(smile)by saying something our president did not say in the first place.It is too bad that they did not get it the first time when our president was called a Muslim and the price of gas went down in record time.

Now it seem the middle -east is taking matters into their own hands to get rid of their oppressors with America invading them in the name of God.(smile)

The best things the roberts of the world can do in try to get off the sinking ship called " Standing against any thing our president is for, such as peace not war", "understanding through dialoge",Equality not seperate is equal","education not prejudice(defined as ignorant)"...WE IN THE REAL WORLD HAVE DONE THIS ALREADY(smile)

I am almost 67 years old and all of my years I have found that those who actually live the words, teachings of the Bible are the ones who can bring peace, security and equality and justice for all...

It is those who a so fanatical that they give you one choice. Convert to my way of worship or else! Which ususlly means WAR,you are the enemy, stupid, less than,unfit, uncivilized, not wanted in my social circle, worthy of my time, friendship,-----------------------------------------this list is as endless as time(smile)and my time is too valuable to get all tied down in: hate, judging, being stressed out etc.--------------------------------------------------you name it...

"KNOW THE TRUTH BECAUSE THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE"(smile)and a truth is about the Athiests weere not the ones to fly those planes into the twin towers or bomb our embassy or our ship or invade Iraq on a lie...

mozell, why after 25 years at Trinity are the Obama not still there? Or did I dream all of those sound bites about him being wrong for listening to all of that Marxis , anti-christ, anti-american sermons????!!!?Just a few days ago there was some right here on BIA who gave praise to God that they got up each morning because this was God's will...This is why to me freedom of religion in America means "AS LONG AS IT IS MY RELIGION, MY WAY OF THINKING, MY'you name it...example the pray in school isue is only about as long as it is a Christian prayer...FREEDOM OF RELIGION?????I do not think so my brothers and sisters.

Mozell, what you say is so true, and the way you describe your church's pastor he is not one who does not enclude ALL peoples.I am sure that rich and poor, those with faults and those with out fault will be welcomed by him. I also get the impressions from you that not just educated people as well and not educted because your Church and you and your pastor is not just out for money and power and media coverage determining how well your congregation is receiving / living up the words of God.All churches should be beacon of hope and not supression of anyone is my belief

As, a result you are able to accept me as I am, not as some are teaching /being taugh that I am wrong because I do not fear going to hell in exchange for not limiting myself to not being all that I can be or your not being all you can be in calling me a N.D.Buddhist a friend.

Yes Craig, I am a Buddhist, but my being a Buddhist has nothing to do with my being a Buddhist. The Buddhism I practice says that we all have the powers within us to do wrong or right in all that we do, don't do.

I stoped being Catholic(which they do not prefer being called a Christian over being called CAtholic, go figure)This has more to do with my being raised to treat others as I want to be treated amonge other things like I do not believe that my African ancestors were not human until after being put into slavery!!!!!

Creig, I got those same critiques when I would ask questions, but not from the family from my parish preist 'earthly father which we did call 'Father'. I was told by him that I did not have enough faith!!!Which would be followed by the go to confession ritual...much like those molestor preist had to do in order to be forgiven of those sins. My greatest sin back then is the same as it is now seeking : knowledge and the widom by way of seeing learning from all sides and all resorces that I can find. I am Irma first and far most, I know who I am and how I got here by way of my mother's body.I enjoy my life so much that I do not have time to give all to helping me learn how to have a good death. I will cross that bridg when I get to it.(smile)

Lov you all...

One of the greatest wrongs that can be taught to any (and I mean any)human being is that they are not responsible for their own actions...

No disrespect to anyone or any religion, but any form of teachings that say get on you knees and pray and leave it in God's(or whose ever name one choses to put here)is saying your cause is someone else's to do battle with...if "they" loose the battle then you can blame them and if they win give "them" praise for your lack of esteem and powers that you may have or lessons that you may learn from your own mistakes!

"I' no longer take myself out of my life and turn it over to anyone to do with my life what they see fit to do with it. This is why I pray then I get off my knees and fight my own battles my self. "I" do this because "I" am the only one who is an expert on me!!!

I accept no conditions that say I must not be the best person I can be nor put some one down to lift my self up by saying that they have no civil rights to make their own choices in any and all things that brings happiness to themselves and to all others by respecting their rights to do the same.

In other words it is not up to me to judge any one's needs,wants,desires, pains joy but my own(smile)And, if I am add, I do not believe in the idea of right /wrong, because I believe that there must be a balance in all things at all times,and this is called progress. Life itself is an on going process of learning from our mistakes...POWER TO THE PEOPLE...Tis book seems to be saying be PROUD of being YOU without fearof the TRUTH...